EP 18: Top Priorities for CIOs & CTOs in Today’s IT Landscape w/ Yousuf Khan

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

In today’s dynamic tech landscape, change is the name of the game. Trends come and go and priorities constantly change.

To give us a snapshot of the tech landscape facing CIOs and CTOs today, host André Christ speaks with Yousuf Khan, Partner at Ridge Ventures. Yousuf has over 20 years of experience as an operator and enterprise CIO and now works in venture capital.

They discuss the top priorities of CIOs and CTOs today, how CIOs and CISOs can become better partners, moving from a project-centric mindset to a product-centric mindset, setting up resilient and future-proof architectures, the relationship between citizen developers and the IT organization, and what large enterprises can learn from scaleups.

To hear this interview and many more like it, subscribe to the Unleash IT Podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or our website.

Listening on a desktop and can’t see the links? Just search for Unleash IT in your favorite podcast player.

Welcome to unleash it, a podcast where we discuss the experiences and ideas behind what's working in enterprise architecture and digital transformation within the IT landscape. Unlock Your Business has digital capabilities. Transform your enterprise architecture. Unleash it. Let's get into the show. Welcome to another episode of the unleash it podcasts. It is a great pleasure to have use of con today on this show. US off is a partner at rich ventures, an early stage one hundred and fifty million dollar venture capital fund investing in experience founders redefining how the world uses software. Based in San Francisco, California, the investments include fastly, brace, discord, uplift, crux, third love and Tri Facta and further. Prior to joining rich ventures, use of worked for over twenty years as an operator and enterprise CEO and has led operations spanning infrastructure, applications, Data and information security. In addition to running customer ATOKASTI programs and building internal product showcases, he was most recently the Cel of automation anywhere, CON VP of customer success, as at move works, Cel at pure storage and CEO at qualities. Use of a great pleasure to have you here. Please tell a bit about yourself and your job at rich ventures. Well, first will thank you so much brap me on. Great it to great to talk to you again. I'm a potlate ridge ventures, where early stage BC firm based out of San Francisco. We focus on investing in early stage companies, typically late seed and series a, with a focus on enterprise only. Great you have such an extensive experience in leading operations spanning all the way from infrastructure applications, data securitnse. On. What areas of technology I you especially fascinated with today? Well, you know, it's been really exciting debate to be in the venture industry. You know, I joined last year. I've spent quite a bit of time as being a CIO and intim see so in some cases, and also running kind of business operations and customer success, and so one of the things that we that I focus on, of course, is looking at companies which are solving problems in sizeable markets, coming from my operator background, and that's, you know, really looking right across the enterprise from automation. Having had a background, they're looking at problem mirrors in cyber security, definitively. We see, you know, issues and continued kind of problems in data compliance and security, and then we start to, you know, actually look a little bit more deeper in particular sectors where we look at SAS solutions which are relevant in, for example, being able to uplift parctivity in specific functions in companies, whether be be the develop space or would that basically being in specific verticals and industries as well? So quite quite a wide variety of companies, but we focus on bdb software, you know, with founders that are looking to...

...solve, you know, sizeable problems inside won market. Well, rich rensches must be super lucky to have you, because now they have also someone who has been in the role on the other side. So it's actually really great. And as we last and when we spoken man in person, you were kind of the act on the acting side. What would you say are today the top parties you see in those cls and cteos which you also work on with your with your portfolio companies now or now it's a prospective venture investments? So can you share a bit bit like what's top off their list? Yeah, you know, I think the key thing is our first will thank you for the kind words. I think one thing in venture is you're going to have to find out who the longer term, how whether you know, a lot of the work that you've done comes into fruition. But I'd like to think that we made some good early progress and we've invested in some great companies. That that I continue to be very, very excited about. You know, one of the things that comes back to me is having been operated for best part of, you know, two decades in a multiple multitude of rolls. I speak with CIOS all the time. I think it's been relatively well publicized that I in my quest to gain knowledge and actually gained a little bit more confident in what I was doing. I was organizing but I termed a ceio group, therapy dinners. Of the course of the last six years I was a lot of my ce by your friends. You know. We would meet often to be able to actually talk about some of the issues and I'd like to think, well, you know, despite having to do this virtually and I still have a lot of conversation with CEIOS, the number of key things that I'm hearing about. Number one is I continue to hear about a CIAs focus towards moving companies and transforming the customer experience and we think that that is a digital strategy around being able to optimize a customer experience, irrespector of which product which market you're in, and setting into it. I think that's that's a continued to continued challenge and focus for a lot of ceios. Security continues to be an issue. I think the harsh reality there is that, well, you know, threat vectors continue to become very complex and they evolve and you have a talent acquisition problem in the cyberscuity market, and so ceios have to work in partnship with see so's, if they have a se so's a partner. Alternatively, to be able to enable their teams. Alternatively, they need to build more skills and look at solutions within, you know, to be able to improve the cyber security posture of their Roman. Number Three A, data continues to be a major challenge, being able to build out a solid data analytics tack. You know, businesses are now being completely overwhelmed with the level of data they're bringing in from their products and from their customers. As was being able to deal with all of the operational aspects of this and so being able to actually drive a good outcomes building into good data infrastructure and architecture and then also be able to actually descend emanated data cross the enterprise seems to be a pretty continual journey. I think the fourth pieces, just you know, it's a pretty regular issue, is like, well, look, how how can we continue to build great culture, scale the organization be...

...able to, you know, develop our people in your talent acquisition, people development growth. This is a continual thing that I hear from Cios in some of the things that they're doing and what they're focusing on, and I think there is a big aspect of a be able to center on the people centric side of being a CIO. And so the just four of probably another half a dozen things that comes to mind. Yeah, and and honestly I can connect very well to to those. Looking at some of the challenges we discussed with in our customer base, I like to dig into some of them a bit deeper. You talked about optimizing customer experience. When we speak to to some of our customers, two things come to mind immediately. The first is connecting more the customer journeys to the efforts in providing great applications. So understanding where our issues in customer journeys and where do I need to improve at first and the second is how do I decide across my portfolio of all my technology, what are the areas where I need to level up? Because, like I mean, you, you have only so much time and focus. So where do you where do you put your chips to level up? So and we see sometimes that the mechanism of understanding the business capabilities of an organization can help to identify where I need to prioritize. So maybe can you comment a bit on the how how much you see customer journeys business capabilities being used to actually turn this, this objective into action? You know, it's it's probably one of the biggest challenges is being able to prioritize and focus on what the right solutions are and being able to focus on the right problems. You know, there's a number of different ways to think about this. One is to think about the fact that there's probably more products being developed for companies which are more software driven and so therefore the experience that customers have it's going to be more it's more digital, right and as a result, of that being able to achieve. PUT RAZOR FOCUS ON ACTI. First will just understand the customer journey and then being able to active look at it from a for a period of telemetry actually right, and look at products and say what's happening in the actual customer experience and break it down into more minute, my new detail, and then looking to figure out where you can optimize it. So that's that piece which comes into place, which is what a customers expecting, and so being able to part drop the product, the product organizations and customer service teams to be able to do that. That's one piece and the second part is actually being able to dive in into how you solving customer problems and how you're able to do that in a much more automated and a probably, I would say, delightful experience, right. I mean the harsh reality is as you're selling more products, and especially if their software driven, you're starting to get probably a lot of signal and you need to be able to break through a lot of that to be able to figure out and say, how are customer...

...success people, how are customer service people, how are people focusing on customers support? How they being able to make sure that we're responding in a good level, being able to provide with the right solutions and be able to protect a brand, and that requires quite a lot of work required for integrations of systems, being able to basically look at the data, being able to report back on it, being able to drive actions, all of those things take a tremendous amount of time. I think the third piece when it comes that is to actually say how is the customer journey actually evolving? Right, you know you're going to be building more products, you're going to be improving your existing product line, you're going to be doing things like upsell, you're going to be selling more features, etc. And so the question comes on to is what is the best way to be able to do that and connect all of that together, and it requires a lot of work to go to place. For example, there there's a lot of companies who are focusing on providing ai for to resolving customers, customers success or customer service issues. Right, a lot of automation chat pots that are coming into place. Well, you know that that experience, you know you have to really think very deeply about how you're able to actually say what's working, what isn't working. You know, ai in that space is actually really difficult to because the data points that come in and the language that comes in us so variant. So how do you basically build an eye strategy that can result that? It's actually very, very hard. And so is that the right strategy? How do you go about deploying it out? What product is a right for? So I think those are the things that typically come to mind. I think the last thing I would say is, you know, for for this is a role of a CIO, especially in the beary where, if you're CEI have a tech company where I basically been, you are somewhat duty bound to be able to work with your customers because you represent the product. And so CEIOS and now playing a part to be able to Addie, build better partnerships with their customers and be able to align because, guess what, the customer is a peer, and so being able to do have a conversation to say hey, here's how I use the technology internally or how do we do that? You see this all the time with leading technology class companies where the CIO has played a role in engaging, being an executive sponsor or basically working with a peer on the on the customer side, be able to build a good partnership. So that's a big part of it. Yeah, I look especially the last point. It's very interesting. I just recently had a conversation with the CI of Workado and I think that's a fantastic example as like really a market facing cio, right, so being being almost part of the part of the part of explain, explaining the product, because us, as much as you use the product internally, you use it use it external. So it's aloys like Carter who's in that role for for a couple of like weeks or months now. It's almost like a great role model for for CIO we're looking for at Lena X. So it's and and I think it's interesting to see that maybe also the requirements towards the CIO change right. So it's no longer just the internal stakeholder. It's more also like how how do you take the own use case...

...and bring it bring it out to the customer? So I really like that. Like like like your thoughts here. I want to go back to to one to one of the other things you said before, that a CEO and Szos need to work better together. Do you have some recommendations on on what is important to make that happen, to make that successful, that collaboration between the two? Yeah, a couple of things. Number one is actually have good intention to actually build a good partnership. Look, they're two different teams, they have two very different operational days and strategies, but you need to be able to have good intention to be able to actually partner. So think about what a good partship looks like. Number two is being able to actually figure out good delineation of and scope of responsibilities, to actually understand where one should collaborate on, where one should, you know, completely delineate kind of responsibilities and having a good line of engagement to be able to do that. I think the third thing is to be able to actually look at subsecurity solutions together, and I think that's important, whether it's on the you know, for example, email is one of those situations where it's managed and overseen by the CIO's organization and the security of it as well, but security across the entire company is required, and so that's a good, good way to be able to actually popper up. So if there is email security solutions that you need to look at. Let's look at that collectively and be able to do that. I think the fourth thing I would say is work on training and enablement. The more collaboration each of your team's have, the more the the ability for an it team to really uplift themselves. Such you a great professional growth and development opportunity for people who are in it who don't have a cyber security background, to be able to actual partner and to be able to shadow and learn is absolutely key. I say this all the time. Information Security in enterprises is every Bun's problem. It's the employees, it's you know, it is not just a see so's responsibility. It's the IT organization. It's across the boards, the executive responsibility as well, and so you know when you have a breach or you have a major cyber attack, it's not just like, oh well, the security you know you are technical professionals in the itogization. You should be making concerned effort to be able to team up, and the only way you team up well is if you understand each other well, if you've worked together well, if you've collaborated, if you've learned together, those are ways to be able to do it. So I believe in that partnership and I believe that would be the right way to operate. Yeah, my our head of information security at Lena X will laugh this and we're use used as called all all over the place. They are so pretty, pretty sure about this. Yet totally makes sense. If you need any supporters or in do that, I'm happy to a podcast with him as well, but he had totally that's good. Yeah, Great. There's one shift always see happening right now in some of the organization shifting way from more project centric to more product centric organization. So I think what is native in most of the Silicon Valley tech companies already today is not happening also in in other organizations. What do you see as an as like what is needed to make that that mindset, mind shift, happening in other organizations? So I mean if...

...it's kind of native where you have product teams, product owners, engineering teams set up this way, but what can other organizations learn from it? What do they need to figure out to actually get get this product mindset right? What would you say? Wow, I think a couple of things. I think one thing is that have to recognize that they act are building products which are being used and actually being able to, you know, understand that you actually have to go through building, supporting, deploying and then actually focusing on the experience of their products and what you're basically deploying, and I think that's one piece that goes in. I think the second thing is, you know, think about what's the best way to structure your team to be able to do that. You know, you start to see this in a lot of companies where people are actually understanding that I actually requires quite a bit of thinking. It's not the traditional approach about how you're able to a build software. It's the approach is actually change and so, therefore, what are the skills do you need to be able to do that? Does it make sense, for example, to get some external vantage points to be able to do some degree of training that goes into it? Can you look at good reference points and examples that demonstrate that that's a good North Star for people to aim towards? Right? So I think it's a lot about the change management that goes into this and some of its tactical, you know, skills and team and otherwise it's actually thinking and so being able to actually look at examples, at work well, you know what the hot freality is. There certain cultures which vote change towards this. You know you'll see this and I think the role was CIO is to be able to help drive better change management. You know, Change Management enablement and companies is actually very hard. Alignment with companies within organizations is actually really hard and to roll the CEE. I do that, but has to come from the top and to be able to drive further forward. Do you believe a better management of the architectures and a higher focus on setting up resilient and future proof architectures can help there as well? I mean, when we last met in person, we've talked a lot about enterprise architecture the value of it. I I often try to avoid, especially in more like a tech context, to what enterprise architecture because it's a it's a difficult word, but I mean I think we all we all agree that architecture is so important. How do you think about it in the companies you work with? Yeah, look, you the first question you asked about some of the top issues. I didn't mention it because until you it's been a continuous issue and so I've actually think that you're actually doing it. You're doing a great job with Lenin X to be able to actually, you know, get people, get people line and focus towards it. It's definitively one of the core issues that I see within cioorganizations and actually it's been, you know, it has continued over time. The reason for this is very simple. You buy more software than ever before, you're building more software than ever before. You have to connect this up. You're deploying more software than ever before, and so whilst you're you have to have a really tough balance between productivity and deployment...

...and good architecture and sometimes, unfortune some people compromise and they kind of think about it later. They think about it, you know, probably from a short term perspective, but building good architecture is exceptionally hard and it's a continuous issue. Part of the reason for this is because people there's a there's a ability to actually have people who think from this vantage point. Enterprise architects actually really hard to hire. For what the hardest things to hire? It's it just is. And so therefore the probably some software can help. I think I know of one company that may help. I'm saying that greater because I you know, I've seen some of the work that you and your team have done. I think the second piece is people have actually understood and come waking up to the fact that because their enter price of being driven by software, that being able to make sure that they're better connected, that they're secure, that they're compliant, that the data flow is actually working well, all of these things, people are now coming to that realization. I talked earlier about the fact that the companies are being overwhelmed by data. Well, the date is coming from lots and lots of systems and there's going to be more and more systems and it's can be more and more products. And if you don't have the right architecture, if you haven't structured both your data and your applications right, you're going to start to beding yourself in the very deep hole. And so, as it's alt that, I do think there's a bit of a wake up call that's happening in the industry around that. To give you some anecdotes, I spoke to about the last tense cire conversations I had. I would argue probably five or six of them talked about in some way, shape or form about the need for a rethinking of the architecture in either core applications for exactly, you know, a large crm application otherwise, or they'll think about it in a much more wider sweat, because I see IA is taken on board a role at a company which is maybe ten years old and then to evolve the architecture for the next ten years, and that's their role. You have worked at one of the companies whose up obviously in a very hot space thinking about like how can I build faster applications on top of existing technology? I'll can automates stuff. I mean robotic process automation as one of the flavors is very hot right now. If we look at other other low code and no code developments, I mean Microsoft power to rules and stuff like that, so many organizations shift development outside of core it more into into business sides. To do you believe that this could lead to a whole lot of spaghetti and issues over time? I mean, we all know that the advantages. You can build so much more faster and and and get stuff done quicker. But how do you how do you make sure that you don't end up in a complete sprawl and then you're then you're you need to reorganize with with like very, very heavy investment. So how do you think about this tough balance between going very fast now with those technologies versus building something very sustainable and long term? Can this go together? Well, it's kind of being able to probably build the plane in the air while the flying it. To be...

...honest with you, I think it's actually very, very difficult to do with specifically the automation space. The reality is that, you know, knowledge workers have been inundated with manual tasks and repetitive tasks for decades and there is a pent up demand and to certainly stand frustration to be able to automate, you know, large parts of their work so they can actually uplift their own productivity. So I see that and you know companies have kind of focused on this. You see a growth in in the automation market across every industry, every vertical or otherwise. What happens, unfortunately, is the be able to actually be well, you have a lot of excitement around this. The role the CIO is to be able to help drive this and be very specific and in some case very prescriptive in driving this strategy, because you've got to figure out the right use cases. You've got to be able to make sure you focus on people's training and you've got to then be able to make sure that what they're trying to do, they're not migrating an old, archaic process into an judicial world. It doesn't work. You actually have to rethink the process first and foremost and ask yourself, why am I still doing this versus well, let's just try and automated. It doesn't work that way, I in my viewpoint anyway. So yeah, that's when you start to get into a lot of spaghetti because you're working towards like saying, oh well, all of this used to be, you know, really manual and now we're basic. And then you find out why is it taking fifteen steps being added? Maybe you should ask the question why is it fifteen steps? Not How we migrate fifteen steps and automate ten of them? So why do we have fifteen stuff? Let's actually asside question right, and I think that's important. I think the last piece on this is is it future proof? So most people think about this. They're like, well, okay, we're going to try and drive towards a bunch of automation, but it's that, you know, it's not. Our systems going to evolve? Isn't our architecture going to evolve? Will it work for the next three months and not for the next six years? Like you can't. You can't see that far ahead in the future, but you do have to think of it from a baseline perspective. Say What are we trying to achieve? Number one, how we get there in the quickest and fasted fashion so we could get good value and good output? And then how do we get people excited for them to be able to think much more widely that we can do this more and I think that's a big piece about having people on the same page to say, okay, we're driving towards the same point, and that's how you avoid, in my viewpoint getting away from lots of people doing lots of good things and they're not connected together. You know, it works in the short term, it doesn't scale in the long term. Yeah, we hear from some of our customers they are deploying this concept of citizen developer. So like having having people in the business equipped with capabilities building software, building applications based on those platforms and, as a consequence, the requirement to actually build core systems, core services by it which are like good, good Apis, good data architecture and so on. So do...

...you also agree that, like as if it then concentrates on providing reusable services, great Apis, which can then be reused outside, then then this could go in the right way. So do you also believe, and that kind of concept, that from there you can build like on top of that layers of functionality? Yeah, look, the imization is is the standard bearer for how business applications and software are running in the company number one. As a result of that, they have the most depth of EXTU I mean they're trained to manage systems, to integrate them, to architect them, you know, to support them. And as a result of that, the ideolization, my viewpoint, has to be able to lead the charge and to be able to achieve both educate and then be able to drive some of the solutions that come into place. Yes, citizen development is definitely happening, but a partnership. It can be done in isolation. You know, citizens are part of a community. You know, you do have you know, you have structures in place that to be able to provide rules and governance. You have the ability to provide support. All of these things matter and I think that applies in our real world and it applies in in automation and citizen development in enterprises. So might viewpoint is very simple. I think the ideogization probably has the strongest vantage point about where application is, or where set of applications are and where they go. And so the ability to be able to actually think about Apis, the ability to be able to think about response times, to think about lags, to think about data ingest, to think about data stores, all of those things should be advantage point where they can say, provide the God rails for a lot of the organization to be able to do development, citizen development, provide the support and enablement and encouragement around it. I think that's that's require and as results, you're going to start to see results. I think the biggest thing that most people miss a feedback loop. People forget, well, Hey, we tried this an he goes so much going on. You're not you don't have a government structure that goes into place a what's working, what is working, and I think that's really, really important to be able to do right. Yeah, that's that's great. I mean I've two more. Two more questions to you. The one is when I when I heard one of your like podcast, I think that's astrom like some time ago, you get some advice on what can start ups learn when they want to work with enterprises. I'd like to reverse this towards like what can enterprises, or especially large enterprises, learned from innovative scale up startups, what they can adopt? So is there? Is there some some recommendation? You have in there too? Yeah, and I think be now on both sides right for see I hear who has been any cups of several startups at the early stages. I've definitely learned a lot, which is why I'm super excited by the industry. And now I'm I'm a vent investor and I'm actually work with startups turn out, so they get to people who used to be in my role. I as a couple of things I can learn. I number one is...

...they can how to build products. I am fantastic. I am very insightful about how you're able to do that, number one. I think. Number two is they're really able to understand a very innovative approach about how you're able to solve problems even through otherwise. Look, most of these enterprises have more budgets and and personnel and engineer resourced and most startups that they meet with, but the reality is that they haven't had the probably the focus of the background to be able to build a great ai solution. For example, they have an ad that they haven't focused on that. So you're going to be able to learn that in a big, big way. I think that the third thing I would talk about is, you know, how do you think about road maps and platforms and vision? But I think that's that's actually a very valuable exercise to be able to think about, you know, collaborating between CEIO. So when I would ceio and I was working with any stage companies, it was very insightful for me to actually understand the genesis of how product has been built, the problem that they're trying to solve, the approach that they're doing to try and solve it right in the team that they put running at that's really, really important. But I also think about how do you think about a longer term vision, about building the product and the larger term impact? Could the product be developed deploying into other use cases in the company right? Could it scale in. You know, it could as a scale in one one case. That's the other things to basically think about, and so I think these are things that actually there's two aspects about. I think this the an any stage founder can learn from an enterprise CIO or an enterprise customer to say, Hey, how does my if I would want to make sure that I my product can be used across your entire company, what do I need to do to be able to do that? And you have multiple vantage points to be able to figure that piece out and I think that's important. I think those are things, those are learning points. So I know I learned a tremendous amount include, you know, interesting conversation with you alone. I was like, Huh, that's a pretty interesting like, you know, like I've been trying to solve this problem for a little well, that's actually you know, I solid visual user in experience, you know, ease of deployment, needs of integration. I was like those are the sort of things that you know, you get excited about it, you want to champion. So I think there's a lot of running for their yeah, looks. Thank you for that. Inside last question to you is if you think I had a couple of years in the future, what are some of the wishes you have for for like our industry, where would say like if, if I've I've a wish, no matter what the investment sought. That that is that is some of the things we should or a couple of things we should wish for in our industry. He talking as a you, as an early stage founder? Or No, no, in like if you think about like tech, the tech industry itself, and so what is probably like one of the biggest wishes? Looking five years ahead, what can we what can we do better? What can we have influenced like looking ahead? Yeah, yeah, certainly look at the couple of things. I'll speak from a broad mindset and and speaking generalities if I may. I think only stage companies, number one, need to focus much more customer success than they've ever done before, right, and I think that's that's going to be about. How you build great...

...partnerships with enterprises. I think that's that's require ceeios when they work with the stage companies, they need that needs to be very collaborative and I think that's one thing from just how we adopt technology. I think that's going to be a critical piece to it. That's one hiding a second pieces. I do think that having a much more platform type approach to products is probably the right way to think about it. I think that's some of the things that I you know, I think there's just lots of reference point solutions, but I do think that the companies that will win are go to ones that are going to basically make impactable platforms for companies. I think, but see io need to think about their own internal platforms, whether it's data or security otherwise, and I think thirty stage companies need to think of from advantage point. If I think about some of the areas which I could be very excited about, I continue be very excited about ai and I think that is going to be harnessed by companies and by the C suite, you know, much more active fashion. You know, I continue to believe that automation is still very early. I think the yes, there are a number of companies I think there's going to be a much bigger drive towards adopting automation and being put into place. You know, I think the other piece is probably it's a much bigger focus on employee productivity, and I don't speak that from a general like, you know, productivity APPs. I'm just thinking about those applications that are at the uplifting the productivity of come of employees in companies, and so a CIOS focus should be centered on that. and See IOS are looking for products in this space and I think that's important and I think early stage. Coming examples I gave our companies which are focusing on very specific functions in companies. You know, not just a big finance, but I mean it's lots of teams in finance, as lots of team in HR. There's lots of teams even in it, and whilst you have some solutions, we oversee a large threat of this. There's lots of people which the not complete, write the products are not complete, they don't serve those functions. As a lot of xcel sheets flying around, Excel hell as I call it, and so I do think that there is a drive towards being able to solve those problems and my strong recommendation is to what I turn as prescriptive systems, that the next generation of SAS solutions should basically have, you know, Ai and data embedded within them and being able to drive a substantial degree of patent matching a substantial degree of prescription in terms of the actions that people need to take to be able to survive their function. But that's in accounts payable in fine hands, whether that's in people operations otherwise or insecurity. But I think the nature of systems either that see io's are building or that early stage companies are selling into. I think that's kind of where where the drive is from my bunch. Now I must say I don't think I answered your question directly, so I do apologize that, but I think it's important to just talk about from a jet because I come from two vantage points, so it's kind of important to be a breach rate that. No, no, you're I mean you answered it very well and I took away to topics for us, even at Lena,...

...acts like the the idea of the platform and also the prescriptiveness. I liked that a lot. I mean you might have seen we've we've just recently acquired a company which is now in thus ask management space, where where we helped to discover and manage soft as a service. And and I think this aspect of being prescriptive and helping companies to take better decisions on what software they should take and what software they they can like introduce where they can increase productivity. I think this is exactly one of the things we keep thinking about all the time. Yeah, how can we make the life of the of the item management so much simpler because you get outside in knowledge on what is good software in different categories? Yeah, I'm so. I really like your point here. So, look, it was fantastic to catch up with you. Use of a wealth of insights in this unique role. Yeah, so, look, working with those technology companies, especially in the Silicon Valley, but being also in the seat of a ceio multiple times before. A big thank you for your time today. I'm pretty sure there's a lot inside for the listeners on on this podcast. So thank you your Souf and I appreciate thank you for your time your good luck to to to the entirely next team. Team to in the time I had and you know, look forward to following your success. Thank you so much. You've been listening to unleash. I T to ensure that you never miss an episode. Subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player if you'd like to learn more about enterprise architecture and tools to help unleash your businesses digital capabilities. Visit Lean ix dotnet. Thank you so much for listening, until next time.

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