EP 14: Transformation of IT in the Insurance Industry w/ Kalpesh Sharma

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Traditional enterprise architecture gives the impression that documents and decisions are made in an ivory tower. Transformed EA, on the other hand, involves CIOs asking, “How can you deliver on my business outcomes?”

In this episode of Unleash IT, we spoke with Kalpesh Sharma, Director and Principal Enterprise Architect at Capgemini, about IT transformation in the insurance industry.

We talked about the operational resiliency of IT applications, business capability modelling for aligning strategic management goals, innovative new ways to sell insurance products by adopting open APIs, and the shift from project to product organizations.

To hear this interview and many more like it, subscribe to the Unleash IT Podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or our website.

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There are new ways and innovative ways of insurance selling happening and for this, insurance companies, they need to open and expand their internal business operations through the open Apis so that the other financial institutions and the insure tech companies can tap into those processes and they can come up with new innoverity product and new ways to sell the insurance to the end customer. Welcome to unleash it, a podcast where we discuss the experiences and ideas behind what's working in enterprise architecture and digital transformation within the IT landscape. Unlock your businesses digital capabilities transform your enterprise architecture. Unleash it. Let's get into the show. Welcome to this podcast on leash it. Thank you very much, psh, for being our guests today at this podcast. Can you please introduce yourself and tell a little bit about yourself, your jobs, your experiences in their life so far? Thank you very much, endery. Thanks for having me. This is Sculpationrma and I'm working as Accounty of architect in Capt Gemini. I did my undergraduate in electrical engineering, so in my career I have grown from developer to solution architect to enterprise architect and now chief architect. So I mean all at on in my journey, I would say I have always been passionated about, you know, solving business problems with a right technical solutions leading to quantifiable business outcome. Right, I've seen how the it has evolved in last twenty years, where it was like so much project driven and the you know, everyone was just the it team, was just performing all the task in sideload to the how the world world is now moving to the product based and how the world is around the technology instead of just the project with the organization. So that that's a big change which I'm seeing and I would say I'm I have enjoyed the right and I'm looking forward to the more, you know, transformation work which I would be doing with business in subsequent years. Yeah, look, I'm very excited to have the opportunity to speak with you today. I think it's a great opportunity to tap a bit into your experience, especially in the insurance and finance industry, where you have gathered a ton of experience in the past, and obviously also understand a bit your view how the architecture management is changing over time. Maybe let's start a bit in the industry part. What do you see as key priorities right now in the insurance industry and what does this mean for the it and probably eventually for the IT architecture in in those companies? Yeah, so I think what I've seen undrey is, first of all, the because of the pandemic, it has fast forwarded the word transformation and reducing the operational cost. That is the main thing which we have seeing in last nine months. The second thing is there is a rush to first of all sustain the existing customer business, reduce the term, increase the way week, you know, the banking and insurance circule companies are trying to sell the business to the existing customer. And third is to increase the sale through world multiple channels. Increase the way that I've been going from very going from a very author of Sur way of doing business, which have they have been doing all along, like brick and mortar selling and then selling through agents and telling selling through broke er, and then going from that mold, or I'm saying not going but growing from that mold, to actually going to looking for multiple ways and means of incasing their business. Right. So three important things.

You know, operation reducing operational cost and then, you know, increasing revenue. And third thing is faster time to market and through innovation. Right, let's start with maybe the first topic. I had a conversation some while ago someone saying to me we're right now in a time where it's no longer like the pendulum swinging to we do just cost reduction or we do just innovation. But the person said to me, look, the big challenge right now is we need to do that at the same time. So we need to we need to reduce cost at the one end on our landscape and we need to invest at the other area. Is that true for for Insurance and finance as well, as you see it? And how do how do I tee organizations deal with this challenge doing post things at the same time? You are absolutely right, and the reactink. I am seeing that change and it there is nothing like just do this, and that's what I was saying earlier. It just do this, I have given this project and just reduce the cost and then if you've reduced the college it's good. No, I think we have to also increase the business. We have to also be relevant in the market. So banking and insurance industries. They are realizing this very well. That's why we are seeing a lot of you know, transformation related to, you know, proposals which we have been working in last nine months to your exact point, asking for exactly both. So the transformation is not just like just change my it organization from whatever they have, like monolithic to micro services. It is it is not that. It is basically all business. Even how, you know, the CEEIOS are asking us, how can you increase my business? How can you increase my footprint by enabling me to sell my products to the new reach? And at the same time, while you're doing that, parallelly simplify my organization, simplify my all the convoluted, you know, ite systems which I have to simplify the tools, to simplify the integration of those organizations. Also, both the things at the same time. And then they are even asking us to have our delivery more on business outcome. So not so. I mean organizations are not really signing any like you know, you must have seen like five year deal of these many million dollars or something like though, going out of the days, I would say. Now all Seisn't it? use, including business and banking and interest industry. They are asking. I want both the things. To your point in does my reven you reduce my operational cost do at the same time, and when you're giving me a proposal, give me you know you have your skin in the game and you know give me work. Tell me what you're bringing to the table, tell me how you're helping me achieving both, and you would be paid when I see the business will been doing that. So that's the big things I would say. Okay, okay, interesting some of what you said. It's really fitting nicely into the picture, because you said like it has to be business related. And what are some of the ways how architects, enterprise artists can help to understand what are the right areas for reducing costs, simplifying, optimizing versus increasing revenue, increasing innovation? What do they do? What methods do they have? I sometimes here as a very good message is to use business capabilities as a model and then lay out where those areas you're probably also familiar with the pace layer strategy. Is this something you see and practice at clients right now, that they that they leverage architects for identifying those areas with the help of business capabilities as an example. Absolutely. So, when they I think, I would say enterprise architects are very busy. This is a very, very busy time for them, right. So you're right. So I think I've been to to your lap point. As you rightly said,...

I've been parted to this conversation with the cios in the defining the strategies is a on, you know, simplifying their application portfolio and then modernizing their platform. So the right of ust a way to do that is to first of all understand what coming from business, right, not from technicals. Right. So, as an enterprise architect, that the role now is first of all to look into the existing business capabilities. Now, existing business capabilities from the perspective of what business want to increase the business, to reduce the chart and to streamline all the operations which we have. So basically, you know, defining the business capabilities covering primarily, you know, having customer in mind. Let me put it in that way. Now, once you have customers in mind, once you have business outcome in mind, then you go to the drawing board and then you define your business capabilities from the perspective of like Strategic Management, from the perspective of how are you delivering customer experience? How are you laying out your product raise development like? How are you servicing the product? How are you selling and marketing the product? How are you supporting the business? And and then so I think I would divide, divide this whole business capability from the IT perspective into two categories. One is the platform strategy and the corproduct strategy, I would say. Right. So, platform or ID strategy is where I would lay out this business capabilities as we discuss one by one very clearly, what are my product or platform related capabilities which I will be selling to the business. And then, on the IT platform or ID strategy perspective, what are the platforms? What are the wear bone, you know, technology which would be supporting this capabilities to become the real and to become viable for business to increase the business basically, he mentioned the third point, which was how to leverage additional channels for for the services, and what immediately comes to my mind when I think about that is something which I know from from banking, which is like open banking, being able to expose Dada services through Apis so that others can build applications and an additional service on top of that. How is that in the in the insurance industry? Do you have maybe even some examples of what could be some ways to expose the services into into the ecosystem, to add new channels? So I really guide opportunity to learn more about this year today. No, absolutely, and I think so. Insurance Industry. Okay, let me put it in this way. Insurance Industry has always been leggered in the transformation because, you know, the other way insurance industry is set up. They don't have as much customer touch points compared to banking. Right. But to your question, do they have? Are they wine for open insurance and the APIS which we we can call? Answer is yes, and how are they doing that? To to exactly our point what we are discussing right, business would want to go from a traditional way of first of all, you know, selling the insurance products. Okay. So for we're going from traditional way, which is pretty much like going through let's divide the whole business, insurance business, into too broad category, retail, bridge business and group business. Okay, so little business is where you're having the customer selling the insurance to customer directly and the group business is you're selling directly to any like like linx can be your customer and we are your men of America can be your customer, and so on and so forth. Right now, going beyond this for business, want to increase the new way of doing business. Some of this new ways are selling, you know, insurance right when customer is buying certain things. So let's say you must be purchasing something in Amazon. While you are purpose sating something an Amazon, you might be asked to do you want to increase your warranty. I mean warrant is nothing but insurance. That's that's a new way of,...

...you know, getting the insurance right when you're getting sold. Second thing is on a property in casualty way. Right, I suppose you are when you're driving. Right. You have IOT devices. Right. So based on those ide device is, you would understand your pattern and then, based on that, we might be able to you knew, like upsell or down. You know, Cross cell, new insurance products. Right. And third thing is they are coming up with new insurance market where they would have they would sell short insurance, Short time insurance, for the very costly, you know, products. For example, if suppose I am having a very costly car or I'm having a very costly jewelry right, or I'm having a very costly, you know some some fancy, you know camera. So if suppose I'm just using this when I'm going to my vacation, for example, and I need this insurance only for let's say two weeks or three weeks, this is a new way of thinking right where I say it's not traditional. I don't need to pay premium to ensure this for the life of the product. I just need it when I when I'm using it. So there are new, very very new ways and innovative ways off. You know, the insurance selling is happening and for this, insurance companies they need to open and expand their internal business operations through the open Apis so that the other financial institutions and the insure tech companies can tap into those processes and they can come up with new innoverity product and new ways to sell the insurance to the end customer. So this is certainly, I would say, in the early stage, but it is growing direction for sure. Yeah, and I like the way you describe it. It's very much around what is the customer journey? You have today and how can you actually make it as easy as possible to to not leave that customer journey? But then we've something in there. I mean looking at how many systems are built and how complex it is to weave together different it systems. Would you say the biggest difficulties from an architecture and a t site to actually realize that? I mean, obviously you can expose apis. That's that's the one thing. You can create small portals, but we all know when we are shopping on Amazon and are buying a product or we're shopping in another web shop, we don't want to have a clunky process where we're redirected somewhere else. You we're leaving the whole thing. We you want to you want to keep the customer in a very clear checkout process. These some of the issues, and what others? Do you see it right now when implementing such solutions? Yeah, that's so. That's a very good question. So I think I think from mighty perspective the way current financial institutions are doing their or the have set up their ID you know landscape. It is very difficult to be able to reach to the Amazon level. You know, maturity of having everything at the center. So we are finding it very difficult, first of us, for first of all to move from their monolithic, existing monolithic architecture to the to the microsources will architecture, or let's say it service, very biged architecture. Right the journey is slow, so that is kind of impacting us. Second is the integration right this this institutions have had the very legacy systems in place, like in the form of mainframe and some old some old technologies and some some systems which have not been updated and have not been released into production for four years, for ten years, and you always get amused by like how can certain system which is kind of going that far. Either you need to rationalize it right to your two hour earlier point. Do we want to retire the system? Do you want to change this system? Do you want to come up with the new capability to for the business? So having a legacy modernization with existing financial institution is one of the very big...

...challenge. The second is the culture. The culture of the organization and the way organization is set up is there's a lot of bureaucracy in way it does, lack of a better word, right so or the new way of delivering business. It is very we are finding it a lot of challenge from the culture of perspective. So we are working very closely with cios to define to even do the organization culture transformation right now. The third thing is the operation speech right. Believe me, I think we are, in fact we are currently getting so much in so many requests or how to help the financial institution from the enterprise logging and enterprise monitoring perspective. They have so many tools and so many ways of doing things. They I think, because the institutions have had money, they kind of purchase everything whatever comes their way rather than, you know, really rationally thinking what's The wot's on the thing. So, you know, understanding the operational landscape and then ability to come up with the right solution which will gear them towards the success of the future is another third challenge. And of course, the fourth, I would say, is consistent across and is like compliance and security right. So it's a data compliance or it's a regulatory compliance or or it's a data privacy and the security security from the perspective of data flow from the start till the way it flows through the IT system and then it goes out for third party and come back and every aspect of this data flow. And you know, there is a lot of scrutiny in the way the this kind of data processing has been done in the past. So we are, you know, being challenged to help customers, to give a solution to for the right data privacy, right it security and and the system security as a whole. Can we take a bit deeper on what are some of the root causes why it's so difficult to actually move away from a move to microservice architectures to Apis? I mean it's conceptually not not a new topic. It's also from a technology now very, very mature and commodity. Why? What are some of the reasons why it's so difficult for the organizations to do that? Is it the access to talent? Is it the lack of methods? Is it's I think it's certainly not the lack of access to resources and money to get this done. But why? Why is it? What are some of the the underlying reasons why this journey is so difficult? Yeah, I think you're absolutely rate ding the the talent and technology. I didn't think there is a dearth of any of the two right. And financial introductions have never been, you know, preview of the you know, they always had money, they always had talented. There's no disposial I personally think. I've seen me in my experience. It is the primary challenge which I see on ground is the way organization is currently structured, the way organization is currently delivering their capabilities and the way the culture of the organization is towards developing, you know, or delivering the believing this capabilities. So I mean, and microsovice is just example. Right, it could have been. Why are we talking about microsovice? Because we are changing the way the existing applications have been delivered or mapped out to the new way of new way of creating application. Right. So the change at the core is at the team level. Right. So, let me give one example. Right. So to traditional like insurance industry, right, they they have divided. If suppose a particular insurance company has sells the life insurance policy says, the disability policy says, the autownown policy. In traditional world they had if I am the...

...customer of the same insurance company, we having three insurance product. I had to log in thrice, say, and it would have a might might have the same domain, but if you do forward sluice, it would be a different portal, looking everything different right now. This is how me, as a customer, have been interacting, which I was always wondering, why do I need to log and thrive? It's the same company, right. But there is another was an underlying problem. The underlying problem was organization was structured in that way. The Life Insurance will have one insurance, one Bu within the organization. They will have their set up from their experience, experience to all the system of record, right from the experience layer to the system record and everything in between. And that is how the organization was structured. That is how the the technology has been kind of streamlined. Right. So, Imagine Life Insurance, let's say, disabrite insurance, or police and home when auto and Home Insurance? Right. This three three different organizations, three different way of Monolithic applications. Now let's say you want to combine all this thing. You as a me, as a customer, not customer. Now the game has changed. Now customer is at the center, not insurance is at the center. Right, the customer is at s in the center, and I need to be able to see all the three policies in in one go and I should be able to will me as a business. I should be able to cross sell, up sell this thing. Right. What is the right way? Right Way, first of all, is to do monolithic to microservice. If you do monolithic to microservice, you would be surprised, like some of the time they insurance company have done like just life, monolithic to microservice, everything independent, sideload. Then just you know, disability. The Monolithic to microservice. This is a challenge, right. Why? Why? It was have you know, those projects are defined like that because the organization I have been paid like that. The business is different, it is different. Everything was different. Right. So I mean, in short, to your question, when we need to when the there's a serious, serious change which is required in this organization where their organ or structure need to mudge. The way they have been delivering project had to change, and that's where I was talking at the very beginning, rate about project to product. They need to start thinking insurance, the whatever they're delivering to the end customer as one one go. So once they do that, then I will technology is always easy. It's the people in the process which is the difficult part, and that's what is the main problem? I would say if introns were, and I know I'm intrus in the industry is now understanding and realizing this and that this kind of change has started happening on ground, and when they do that, that's where they will be ready for the future. So you're saying, essentially, as long as you don't start creating a common understanding, like a more horizontal understanding, of what are the common components you need for the products, then they are like replicated and different, like, for example, the signature process might be different, like the e signature process might be different, and the one product than any other. The authorization is different, the documents management is different. So your essentially, when I when I trying to translate that to the requirements, to what's the architecture means, we need to think more in in like capabilities across the products and extra track them so they they can be reusable. I mean it's essentially, again, if you're probably also aware of the concept of service oriented architectures as an idea many years back, what do you think today is different, that this concept can actually get to life? So I mean I think we would all agree that we usability, modularity, and all of that is all concepts which are there many, many years, like how to our chances chances increase now that it can be implemented...

...in a good way today. What you see as what has changed actually again a good point. You're absolute gread. I think all along, reusability and creating components, reusable component has been the me and we have been working in software industry that that was the norm from day one. I mean that's that. That has not changed. And even in this as service or Inter architecture era, I think everything, I was being exposed as service earlier. You know, soap as a soap service. So that has also that is also not new. I mean exposing everything as a service. Right. So what has changed now is, first of all, on it landscape perspective is now we had a dividing first of all, the architecture is different. Architecture is not limited to the on premise of the particular industry. Architecture has moved from on premise or is getting moved from arm premise to to single to private cloud, to hybrid cloud and to multi cloud now, right then. Second thing is the way the way mult the customers are engaging with this industry. You like have is changing. Now the engagement is at multi channel level. So it from technology perspectives, mobile, web and an IPAD or. You know, there are multiple ways in which they are there. The systems are being exist. The second thing is there are multiple way thus the the the the products are being sold right. So the way this has been coming out from the architectural perspective is absolutely distributed. Okay, so when we create this, as you know, distributed architecture into one, one architecture which is relevant for business and solving business problem in her money architecture. You know, that is easy. But what is the difficult is the way I just explained. The steam back to whatever, whatever I was explaining, is the way the or structure is set up. Right. So, once we move from that ORC structure set up to the way, let's say, you know, you have your one team who's, you know, taking care of let's say claims handling capability. I'm talking from instance perspective. Whether it's a life claim handling or dissoblity claim handling or in a property and casualty claim ndling, doesn't matter. That's one capability. Within that capability you would have your application development team. You would have your application support team, you would have your testing team and then you would have operations team, all working together as one team and then delivering the this product capability. Okay, now, once we change that a game, the way we would be doing a delivering the microservices, the way we would be delivering the applications and the way we will be testing the application, and then it would be very different. So to your earlier question, how we would be successful this time. So we would be successful this time because if we the way we would need to structure, the way we need to deliver and the way we need to go from like project with delivery to product base delivery and, very importantly, one time Dei digital transformation to the continuous transformation. Once we do this, combining this to change and with the ability of how the architecture is, you know, laid out, I'm pretty positive that, you know, we will be able to successful in this. Yeah, and and I totally like what you were saying regarding this this shift to more than the the products, products based organization. I mean it goes well in in this idea how how tech companies organized to they much more around our countability. So that I think that's very well a line. What do you think it's needed for the enterprise architecture men an discipline to to move more towards towards the product at because look, when we started nine years ago,...

...enterprise architecture management was purely about the corporate at side, like the internal it t landscape, and and figuring out how primarily on like like the EARP systems at back office systems. And we get more and more interest in like how can we make it, make the architecture management useful for the product it to what do you think is important in the management of Enterprise Architecture to actually be valuable to product it organizations? Do you have, like, any recommendations for that? Absolutely, in fact, you know, I'm working very closely with one insurance company and helping them set up their, you know, enterprise architecture as a capability and changing the way they are currently doing and we are, we are calling these as architecture as a service. So let me just, you know, ipack that a bit for you. So do your right. Traditional Enterprise Architecture Organization had been more on the sitting in the I wory to our creating documents, creating, you know, the big fat I would say, you know, a Dogive, a big fat architectures and then and then some governmance process where they're asking, you know, be development team on ground to just come and then get their governance set up and then get their delivery government through. Those will be well dey, fine architecture principles and so on and so first so, though, I again enterprise architecture has to be one. It cannot, in the new product based delivery business, to change. How will this change? So, first of all, we would define the whole architecture into you know, multiople, you know, three important layers. Okay, and we would allow we are we would suggest to allign this very close to the safe for principle. Again, you don't necessarily needly near, need to do safe agile on ground. If you're able to do that, I think that would be awesome because that will ease your journey. But I think with insurance industry we are to Firstt start with because they they are still doing their whold way of working right it. So it is difficult for them to ask them to change everything. So we are. So the way we are explaining them is look from enterprise architecture perspective enterprise architects at the very top lay level has to work very closely with business, help them define the business strategy, understand what is the business vision and, to our earlier point, the laydown business capability, tie up those business capability with the all the application capability on ground to the application, you know, nationalization and portfolio simplification. That would be at the end. Then, of course, create some lean architecture principles, create the minimum viable architecture and then in the second layer, based on the capabilities, based on the business capabilities which is defined in the level one at the enterprise architecture level, where aligning to those business capabilities. In the second level you would need to the architect would need to then, you know, create the enablers for the product, aligned business which brought business capability, aligned teams on ground. So create the enablers. Those enablers can be created in the form of working you know POC's working refere you know, reference architectures with corresponding working implementations, doing innovations and leveraging right trains and technology, again aligning to level one defined by enterpase architecture. And so that would be the role of level to at the business capability level. And then the last one would be the team which I described earlier, the third level, where the team all the Abdev team, the testing team, the QA team and the operations, or sorry team, they all working together solving one particular you know, business release or microservice. They need to run very fast. They need to end Ay, while while they're running fast, they do not. They need to lean enterpase architecture documentation. They need minimum viable architecture for them. They need enablers ready for ready to use by them, right and...

...while they're doing that, the governance has to be simplified. The one is we need to empower people on ground to be able to take the decision, the right decision, which is aligning to the framework of the enterpase architecture. Right. So with that, with those three things, you know, in place, you would be enterprise architecture in new world. Would we be helping business and helping the other ID team work, you know, do what they do best in delivering the product features faster? Okay, yeah, so I mean there's this sounds like number of great ideas moving forward and probably inspires some of our listeners to like, what can they do to to actually prepare their enterprise architecture practice for becoming ready for the product it world. You mentioned in the beginning that in the insurance industries, topics like operational resiliency and and also compliance still still play an important role. Can you share some examples why that is the case, because I think it's great today that we could speak a bit more deeply about insurance and banking and and understand where those requirements are coming from and what is maybe also something very current you're seeing in your customers. Yeah, absolutely, that's a very, very relevant topic. Come and Ray and then I think I will give you to two very, you know, recent examples. Okay, one example is back in March, okay, when the pandemic hit one of our you know, we were working closely with one of the you know, one of the leading investment bank, and we understood that they run into the problem because everyone in their organization they started, you know, accessing main frame applications from their home. So they're because men from is very costly, as we all know. They had a limited in their lower environment. The men from just went down and it took them lot of time to bring that back up. So the resiliency was tested for the first time in a live manner when the pandemic hit and then they lost millions of dollars. The second very important example is right this week, you would know. Currently, oddly so, Texas in US has hit by the storm. So there are there are some, you know, insurance companies and banking institutions. They have their data center there. So because of the way this, because of the current problem where the whole Texas greed is collapsed, the day doesn'ter collapse and their whole business was down for, you know, some of days, right. So I work for days, right. So that has a directly impact. Now. So I think in last nine months, along with the all the transformation pieces, as I was explaining earlier, operational resiliency, like applications residency, as well as the infrastructure resiliency, has been one of our primary proposes which we have been working on. So with application residency, we just need to see if this kind of event occurs, how does application react, whether application would be able to sustain where, and what would you do if it doesn't react? What is the right way to do? Right? No one has, you know, ever tested this in a and whenever I have this kind of conversation with the people on ground, they say, oh, Bible, by the way, we are doing performance testing, so that should be covered, and that's not true. Performance testing just heats, like if everything is working the way it should be and if there is a load, then performance testing will take care of it. But you would need to come up with a different thought process and that's where the chaos engineering or chaos of principles comes into picture. So we have a you know, we have come up with a solution with the you know, working prototype where it is. We are helping, you know, financial institutions to to test their application resiliency as well as infrastructure resiliency, and then let's see how those...

...component behave in this kind of you add events either your and there are like there are multiple way things can go wrong it. These are just to real life example. The qution is, how would your system be aim and are you ready to, you know, move away? How are you ready to kind of really recover from it? Basically to see the resin is is it fair to say that again, they're architects. Enterprise architects can play in important role in in helping the Organization to classify wet, which areas to look for first, because, like the companies we're working with, I know we're talking about like hundreds and thousands of applications and of course we cannot go and do like operational residency tests for all of them. So we need to quickly understand which of those are business critical, which of those are like already in a resilience hosting set up. So is it fair to say that again now, this visibility and transparency can help exactly there and inform where to invest into more resilience testing, because you cannot boil the ocean in those large landscapes. You need to start somewhere, and it's now crucial to explain the management as well that, yes, we've started in those places where was most critical. So would you agree that there could be a big, big help from from architects right now? You are a spot on and ray, you're absolutely right. We don't need to boil those and and that exactly what we are telling our customers. They need to first from oblication perspective. They need to first focus on the critical applications where the business has gains a lot of revenue, a lot of or ISIES business critical. We can work with business and figure that out. The second is the infrastructure where these applications are reciting on. So those becomes, obviously, we know, very critical for them to serve rate. So you're absolutely late to to two step approach. Very simple. Just work with those critical applications and critical infrastructure. First, established the practice and second, very importantly, have this practice of this chaos engineering right to added the do the shift left and like the code coverage and security testing and the performance testing, we just add this chaos testing as part of their day to day delivery. And if we do that, then then definitely from going you know, as the as and when new projects are coming up, new critical projects are coming up, they be no business would be ready and business would be contradent. That those obligations are also resilient and corresponding in protector is also easier. Look, we could go on for for many more maybe even ours, talking about those topics. I found it very fascinating to hear from you today a number of very tangible examples in this specific industry, thanks to all your experience. We talked about today this like what are some of the parties right now creating efficiency on the one hand, side adding revenue for new products, at the other hand, side, creating an ecosystem and new channels how to connect. We touched a bit about on this topic of open opening up the insurances similarized we see it in open banking. You explained US why the shift to a product mindset helps to actually think more horizontal across the different products were today mostly organized more vertically. Are So the the different insurances, which is, from a customer perspective, not so, not so attractive. And and last but not least, here a bit off like, especially because of the events in the recent days, but also of the pandemic in general, why Operation Resiliency plays a big role and also how enterprise architects can actually contribute that. So I can, I can actually totally understand why, in that industry right now there is a strong demand for transformational services, for support by...

...architects to drive this forward. I can only say it was really great to talk to you, getting some of your experience in this in this conversations, and I like to close with a big thank you for being the guests on on this podcast. So Capesh, thank you. Thank you very much for that. Thank you every with and it has been a really nice conversation. I think we've done it a lot of topics in this doubt, you know, in this time. I agree if we could go on, but they had the day. You know we have limited time, but thank you very much for having me on the show. I really enjoyed our discussion and wish you all the best for your Lena e Jerney. Thank you. Send to Youtube. Thank you so much. Thank you. You've been listening to UN leash. I T to ensure that you never miss an episode. Subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player. If you'd like to learn more about enterprise architecture and tools to help unleash your businesses digital capabilities, visit lean ix dotnet. Thank you so much for listening. Until next time.

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