Ep 15: IT Insights for Organizational Resilience w/ Peter High

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Peter High, president of Metis Strategy, has spent the past couple of years interviewing IT leaders in a variety of organizations for his podcast, Technovation. Through these conversations, he has gained a lot of insight into the IT challenges and trends facing CEOs, CIOs, and CTOs.

He joined us on a recent episode of Unleash IT for a wide-ranging conversation on the topic.

We covered some valuable topics in this episode, including how to make plans in a world of rapid change, the evolution of IT priorities, five aspects of digital transformation, and how cloud infrastructure benefits organizations.

Check out Peter’s podcast, the Technovation Podcast, and his new book “Getting to Nimble”.

To hear this interview and many more like it, subscribe to the Unleash IT Podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or our website.

Listening on a desktop and can’t see the links? Just search for Unleash IT in your favorite podcast player.
 

Welcome to unleash it a podcast where we discussed the experiences and ideas behind what's working and enterprise architecture and digital transformation within the IT Landscape Unlock Your Business's digital capabilities. Transform your enterprise architecture unleash it. Let's get into the show. WHEL come to this episode of the unlish it podcast today. I'm really excited to have Peter High as a guest at this show he's a president at Mattis Strategy and the host of one of the very well recognized technovation podcast, a lot of COS being guesse there. So it's really in honor for me to welcome you Peter, would love if you could introduce yourself to the lesseners here, oh Andre, thank you so much. It's a pleasure for me to join you and I'm grateful for this opportunity to speak with you today. So yes, is you were kind to mention, I'm the president of Medo Strategy, that's a firm at the intersection of a business and digital disciplines. We do a lot of work with chief information officers, digital ofsters technology officers, CEOS of technology firms and a lot of it centered around strategic topics to include various things hanging under the the larger rubric of Digital Transformation and Innovation. I, as you also kindly mentioned for the past twelve years of moderated a podcast called technovation, were five hundred and fifty or so broadcast into that I've been a columnist at Forbes for the past eight plus years as well about six hundred a fifty or seven hundred contributions there and later this month. My third book comes out getting to Nimble, so I'm a book author also and so across those those various forums. I have the reason to speak with a lot of technology leaders, but I'm so pleased to speak with the great technology leader in you today on your on your podcast. So thank you so much. Thank you Peter, and I probably like one of my first questions. I, how do you do all of that? At the same time like creating the content? Writing a book and having having those conversations like? What's your secret sauce there to organize all of that, yeah? Well thin! It's a great question I, which I appreciate an obsession of mine from early in my career, especially very early in my career twenty years ago, in founding this firm when for a fairly long period, I was basically me in a variety of contractors. An obsession of mine has been finding ideas where I do a single piece of work and there are a variety of benefits that come from that piece of work in the very early stages. A lot of it was around not only doing our advising of of chief information officers and other technology executives, but also finding opportunities to write about what we know and right with who we know. You can understand that in a lot of the work that we do, we sign agreements that keep the render private ar relationships, but there's an opportunity for us to put our name next to some very impressive names through various media outlets. In the early stages it was a little bit of periodical writing and then it advanced to some of the things that I mentioned in terms of books, a D and forbs colum, podcast, Etceera, and so the Nice thing about that is I all of those activities, as I mentione put me, give me a regular rhythm to conversation with people who are shaping the technology landscape and every one of those conversations is first and formust an opportunity for me to learn. But there are also opportunities to understand you know as I'm cureating conferences or as I'm writing or as we're doing work. You know it gives me a lot of levers to pull on based on the insights that I'm drawing from them, and I also need to underscore I couldn't do all the things that I do without a great team. There's a lot of people behind the various activities that I've described, and so I certainly wouldn't be able to do it, but for their great contribution in a variety of ways as well yeah. You definitely have a fantastic list of guests on on the show. I just recently saw the intoit co being. I think one of the last episodes coming out. Five hundred and thirty, eight really fantastic and yeah can only only advertise this year. I think it's ha wealth of knowledge on Cos and which needs me probably to the first question. If you look to the let say in the last...

...twelve months, twelve eighteen months, what were like some of the patterns or pririties you've seen in those conversations we really curous and compare- maybe some notes and discuss some priorities with you. Thank you yet, no great question. So, through the course of the pandemic, it has been very interesting to see how the outpriorities have evolved in the early stages. Understandably, a lot of it was around insuring that virtual communications and virtual collaborations were as seamless as possible. So if organizations had not already invested in a various formats to facilitate those that was the time to make sure they were really getting those rights. Secondly- and maybe in many cases first also was security- The as the threat lens landscape disseminated to each of our homes, as opposed to the proponderance of work being done in our offices, making sure that those that work was done as securely as possible became that much more important. Also, once those were really solidified, then what was very interesting was the degree to which the investments were offensive as opposed to defensive. If you will, I don't mean to oversimplify things, but it got into te areas like data and analytics that not to say that those were new areas of investment, but was very heartening as I compared this economic crisis to the one in two thousand and eight, for example, in two thousand and eight there was there were a lot of organizations that really ds went through their it organizations and just cut almost indiscriminately. This was still viewed at that time as a function that was right for that cutting and so, where there was, you know, funds that needed to be saved. That was an easy place to go. What was so heartening during this economic downturn was the much greater recognition as to not only was this an area that was more strategic. It was actually the source of resilience in many cases, and I so I would say the other thing other really interesting. Learning about the emphasis there was those organizations that had gotten further along in their digital transformations and had done so more steadfastly were the ones all things being equal. There's of course, some industries that, no matter how good you are, you were going to be unduly harmed by the by the implications of this correction, but all things being equal, those that had embarked on those transformations and done so most effectively were actually the ones that were most resilient as we entered into this crisis, and certainly, as that is continued as well. So that's been an interesting learning as well. Let me pick up on. One of the topics is said. So definitely the cost sensitivity and rigor in driving down cost where possible comes up in the number of conversations. What I found different as that and one co and another architect told me like now that any point before it was like either cost saving or investing, but it's actually cost saving and the one end and investing at the other end. So I feel almost like, if I think about the architects working and in those companies it's great where they can help to inform. Where should you invest and where so, can you cut costs? So do you also see that pattern more emerging, because I feel it's different than just depended them swringing from like there are years of cost savings and then years of investment. Now this is happening all the time. So at what ther mechanisms do the companies have to deal with that changed motion right now? I think I think it's a fair point. You raise it Ondrid. In fact, there are number of technology leaders that, as they have aspired to contribute greater levels to the top line of the profit equation, as opposed to their traditional domain. The bottom line cost efficiencies, and so on that they have proven that justification with greater efficiency that it infacted is the bottom line of the propit equation and improvements there that have led to them to a greater ability to contribute to the top line, and so, as they have pushed more towards the innovation part of the the set of activities within the enterprise that they've done so through greater efficiency. So you know look, I will be contributing. Ten percent cost savings this year through a variety...

...of efficiencies, I'm bringing to the enterprise I'd like to hold some of that deer Giv certainly give some of that back to the company, but also use. Some of that is the justification for greater investment and so you're right, I think again. The stereotype historically has been that the it function as a a sort of lesser chief, if you will not at least originally not reporting into the chief executive officer like other chiefs among the leadership team that oftentimes they were not managing their portfolio as well, wisely or as with as much scrutiny as other parts of the organization. Now we see that that has changed tremendously. Most CIOS now do report to CEOS. Most of them do have great financial acumin on their teams also, and are thinking much more with a lot more scrutiny that their first indformars providing to themselves as to where their sources of efficiency and then also, then, where can we use some of the what we are saving for investment, seeing that in good times and then, of course, doubling down on the both of those disciplines during these challenging times? What I've learned from some of the conversations is that there's right now, a big debate going on of this corporate it and product it being separate in organizations and you mentione it like the CO is rising and importance because of making sure you have good collabration, good infrastructure right now. But the question which I see is, then you have in many companies now the city all driving forward the product, the product, development and eventually, I think, thes this concept of like a two speed. It where you build products independently of what the existing landscape is is from my point of you coming to a problem where you actually need the data from the backend systems. You need to data from from your Corprat it, so they cannot no longer be like really separate. How? How do you see that happening, especially as the CO is busy, probably even more a bit on the colebration and infrastructure side to bring so that the company brings those two pieces better together? Is that something you see as well and its tist actually moving forward or still still very separate in the organizations you have talked to it's a keen insight, Andre, and I think it differs based upon the organization and the executive or executives is the case. Maybe, as you say, there are some organizations where there's been a proliferation of technology rules where you have perhaps a cio who manages the kind of old school technology. If you will the the pipes, although with modern technology, there are certainly less you know, actual pipes which is part of, I think the migration that needs to happen from a modernizing perspective. I'll get to that in a moment and then maybe that same organization has a CTO who is more product focused they have the engineering teams they are focused on. You know the things that the organization is selling depending upon what that might be and impacting customer experience and the like. Maybe they have a chief data officer or a chief digital officer as well, and I would say, the optimal situation- it's not maybe feasible in every organization right away as these insights downe to them done upon them. Is that optimaly? That's one one team, the extent to which you have varying technology disciplines littered across the organization. You ultimately have these vendiagrams, where there's some overlap between what they're doing and where there is that overlap hat. That is room for inefficiency. I mean, and it's the worst phases it's the opportunity for politics to sort of enter into the fray as well. You know you have your Turfi have turf wef feel some competition between us. Maybe I'm working around you or against you in some ways, as a result of that, to try to bolster my case to have a bit more power in our in our enterprise. Obviously, that is a a very negative thing to arise. So the best sort of scenario is an organization like. Let me take one example that that I know quite well: capital one of financial institution in the United States actually head quarter, not far from where I live in northern Virginia outside of Washington DC. There's is a leader Rob Alexander who's, been in his post a decade and a half, maybe even a little longer at this point, and when...

...he, when he took on that post, had a very traditional it organization, a lot of it was outsourced by the way, a decadad decade and a half ago. This is actually now parketing back to the period of the last crisis, for example, and recognize wait a second a lot of what we are supposed to be minding a lot of what we should be doing. That is strategic because actually done by people outside of our organization. We need to bring that engineering talent back in. In fact, we need to have the aspiration of being a great engineering group akin to a Silicon Valley or a you know, another techhub area and rethink the way in which we manage our technology and went about a multiyear transformation in that organization. In essence, all of what you've described in terms of the traditional cio set of responsibilities that CTO you know, product centric set of responsibilities, even the chief digital offser chief data officer, his he does not have that long title that includes all of those various things, but indeed indeed he is doing all of those things. His team is doing all of those things and is doing so because he provided the rationale and the justification and ultimately, the value of bringing that all together and that organization has gained mightily as a result of what he and his team have that transformed in the culture that they've fostered. Do you observe, and that's a great great example- yyour bringing and definitely interested lookinto that, obviously, what we see is that edit varies across the industries right. So, your more you have a dependency on product development, so like banking or insurance, where it is core, I think it's anyhow more integrated the less that's the case. Obviously it's still like two separate worlds. However, I saw like Mersk the large shipping company they were saying like they are on the journey to become a tech company and they measure it by the number of engineers they employing. So that was actually quite interesting. I said like okay, we have like sixhusand engineers, we have already and data scientists, and that's just the measure of explaining, like how far they on their journey to become a tech company. So I found that found at quite fascinating. You mentioned another topic which I'd like to to understand digital transformation. I feel this term is fairly overused and some organizations are getting more clear round. What is digital transformation and what is it transformation? Does it always have to be like under one umbrella? Can it be like two big work streams? What are you recommending actually also y your clients? How to how to approach is because it's like this bit big pot of you and you don't know what it is in the end. Yeah exactly T S A it's a really a good point that you raise. It is a big topic. It is a Turet set, a term that is used widely to describe a whole range of activities, and I think it is important to sort of get down to the component parts. So there is a people aspect to digital transformation process technology, even broader ecosystem and strategy. These are some themes for my book. That's about to come out getting to Nimble that I'm drawing from here, but from a people perspective, it means having this sort of team. That is, has a learning agility associated with it. What where you are constantly striving for your team is for the skills of the feutere and not resting on the laurels of you know the skills of your degrees or past experiences alone. If from a process perspective, it means more agual development, it means the incorporation of themes and topics like devops and a range of things, even a product orientation where project orientations used to reign that bring together the traditional silos or, I should say, render more permeable the traditional silos so that you have collaboration at the earliest stages of t e development of ideas in ways that perhaps weren't the case in the past. It means from a technology perspective you leveraging cloud technologies to a much greater extent, contain rising and Apis and various aspects of modern technology that allow you to scale much more quickly, but also to do so more securely. At the same time, from an ECO...

PRENECO system perspective. Thinking more broadly about strategic partners that you're bringing on great companies like Lenix, among others, who can help you along this journey towards modernizing and building a set of cohesive set of practices that are emblematic of where technology is going not where it is or where it has been, and then. Lastly, thinking about strategy, butthethe traditional implications of Enterprise Strategy and TECHR digital strategy, but also getting down into data strategy to a greater extent, since, of course, it's the data that you need to harness to garner greater insights and to make faster and better decisions in the process. In summary, what I would say Andre is it's critical for organizations to not think about digital and digital business and regular business as two streams. Yes, they may be during that the transformation during the change, but it's about bringing those things together. I think about the Washington Post, my hometown paper, which is an international paper in terms of its reach and the fact that, like so many in the media space, they were kind of languishing for quite a number of years, losing advotated advertising revenues to the likes of Google and facebook. Losing subscribers, as the thought of holding a a physical paper for Gen y and younger, was something that was completely an Athema. You know and frankly, losing a lot of reporters at the same time as as their financial situation wasn't allowing them to grow the talent that actually produces the content. That is the life. Blood of the organization enter a great leader, Shilesh Precashas, CH, chief information officer and really rethinking in a akin to what I mentioned with bribe Alexandra capital, one bring in engineering weight to this organization, an organization that it traditionally thought about the physical paper and the traditional ways of doing things from immediate perspective, separate from the digital versions of those and as a result of that they were operating oftentimes in parallel. He brought them together that the digital product and the traditional product are one yet, yes, that you still have a physical paper and that's not digital per se, but the mechanism of which that's brought together and, of course, the rendering of that into all sorts of different platforms ought to be a unified approach. By the way he was so successful as CIO. He is now the chief product officer for the organization as well and on the board of Jeff Bezosa, who owns the Washington Post of blue origin, his space company, an a Kikan Siglieri to bezos himself, so it such worth was the value that he is driven in that organization. One last anecdoe that I'll share that that I think is really interesting. He also rethought the platform in which cat content is produced to make it easier for the production for the for the reporters for the columnist and so forth, easier on the back end for or for you and I, as readers of the content as well, and was so successful, developed a platform that leap frog, the industry to such a great extent. It's now a hundred million dollar business for the post as a variety across the world. A variety of media properties are using it recognizing it as a new standard in many ways. So just an example of thes sort of change that I'm Jes cribing, that's fantastic inside you mentioned the need to bring in engineering capacity to leverage cloud technologies, clalled native methods. How do you think about the organizations, readiness and capability to to govern those technologies in a smart and right way? I fear sometimes that now applying very restrictive governance to cloud native will actually make all the developers scream and go away again, yeah. So how sensitive our organizations already, because, obviously the first cloud accounts they are creating a lot of money now a lot of costs yea, so not exactly not m, yet probably money. But how do you think about this governance aspect, especially now that the pandemic has hit where organizations like look more onto onto cost? Are they good enough in managing clod native governance in a smart way? It's a really interesting point. You raise Andre, I think a lot of people viewed and even many today view cloud is a cost play and I think that's an error yeah. It's not to say, of course, that...

...it can't be something that benefits you from a cost perspective depending upon how you're managing it, but it shouldn't be the the primary justification for the move to the cloud. This is about flexibility. It's about scaleability! It's about reliability, hopefully, if you've chosen O r your cloud infrastructure. Well, it's also about security. Obviously, all these things need to be continued to be monitored, to make sure that you that you are justifying that that original justification, that original case that you have made again and again to make sure that it is continuing to prove itself. But you know I no no doubt this is continues to be a key strategic weapon in the Arsenal of technology and digital organizations and, by extension, their enterprises to foster that resilience when, in fact, I mean, let's think about again. I hope I'm not overusing this, but the comparison between the last correction in this one in the last correction. Clearly before the grand poliferation of cloud technologies, the way in which you cut costs within it organizations was almost immediately to people because th the commitments you had made from the actual technology perspective. These are contracts that went out years. These were you know, depreciation schedules that were very complex. There was a lot of fixed costs associated with the portfolio of technology that you were managing fast forward to those organizations that have made the leap towards the cloud and all of a sudden you've got some levers to pull that. Allow you perhaps not immediately go to letting go people the the the key factor in the the key value contributors to any enterprise, and you know be able to scale down in addition to scaling back up. We all hope, of course, that with the that the pandemic, hopefully if we can get get paste it sooner rather than later, that there's going to be a lot of unleash, demand in a variety of industries, and so the ability to scale back up very rapidly by the way is going to be an issue as well, and so I think it's cloud technologies that will help organizations get there. I mean think about your own, your own company, untre. I mean I act as a digital native organization, one born in the digital age. You know, I know for certain that you, you are not investing in th s technology in developing your product and for those organizations that were born thirty forty fifty a hundred years ago oftentimes they still have critical data that is flowing through t s technology. If not earlier, it's like a museum in some cases and what I would say is they need to emulate companies like yours. So if you had the Tabularaza, if you had the blank slate today, what would you do now? Of course, it's not as easy as flipping on a light switch to so all of a sudden have modern technology, but it does mean developing a plan in many cases of many year plan to get there, because that is going to be a source of great resilience and flexibility and scall ability again up and down, no matter what hat what the future holds for our organizations yeah, and I mean it obviously has to do a lot with this topic. What we are helping companies with is like: How can you? How can you move forward in this in this transformation? I feel transparency is often crucial, but there's a debate going on and Peter one of the questions. I would have how you advise your kinds. Some say you should ignore. Probably what what the past looks like and just focus on defining what the target is then others say like you have to know. The ASS is to be able to plan it out. Others say just focus on like one year plan and then then others say you need to have a three to five year plan. So so what is like? What is what you advise? What are some of the lessons learned you've seen in your in customer baseboth, on like detail, planning level of transparencey needed all Cote questions of how to set up good architecture, actually yeah great, a great questions, all and you're right during this this day and age where the pace of change is faster than it's ever been, and yet it's the slowest. It will be from this point forward that there are many people who are saying what's the value of a five year plan as soon as I commit it to paper, it's going to be the reality. Wi will pass so quickly, N in directions that are unanticipated to us, that it doesn't render that five year view moot. What I would say is...

...there's still value to that. It means that you should have plans that are like a quarter or two outs where the reality is not goingig to change so dramatically. But whenever you are planting these stakes in the ground, don't plant them so firmly down that they can't be moved a bit. If you will that we need to recognize that look, it's still important for all of us to know where true north is so that we're all pushing in the same direction. You know a lack of strategy will almost by definition mean that you know even great people on your team will be pushing in opposite directions, perhaps even against each other. You know against each other, or there will be some efficiency and time wasted as a result of that lack of clarity as to the direction of the organizations going. So I think it's really important to have fairly firm plans for the near and medium term, well, also having an idea of what the long term looks like, but always recognizing that there is a a need to change that based upon what the reality is going to be in what comes to pass. More importantly, to your point to transparency, I'm a big fan of being very transparent. No, it's not to say that every last thing every decision that's made in the company every you know last detail should be shared with every last person in the firm. But I certainly think that, as you as Youre plotting your strategy, that it is important to communicate those for the reasons I mentioned before, that everyone understands the role they play in the plan and that in fact, they're pushing in the right direction. So what I would say is think about it as stakes in the ground. There maybe a little bit more firmly planted, for you know the three year, a three month rather cycle this six month, even the twelvemonth and then planting some for the beyond one year, time horizon, but as as you continue as as time marches on, even if there aren't major changes in economic correction, an acquisition, a divestiture of a part of your business, the introduction or removal of a competitor, somehow allo. Those are major enough circumstances that a major rethink of your strategies probably necessary, but even in the absence of that, just with the passage of time making sure that you ere constantly reevaluating the the theses, the hypotheses that are behind the plans that you have put in place, and course correct along the way and then described your team, why those changes are being made so that they understand. Yes, you were pushing in this direction, we're not going to ask you to push in this direction. But for these reasons this is why the changes happened and again. I think that that that a fosters greater understanding. It fosters, you know, greater accomplishment of the plans ultimately, but also takes into account the reality that you're facing day and day out your speaking to so many tack leaders, especially also in the US, and what would you say, are some of the important trends right now that CIOS and ctos need to focus on what do they need to learn in order to to integrate that well into their road maps into their plans in deriving this North Star? What would be, what is there on Youl? Let's say top five list yeah, so I think what I would say is it's important to cast one's net widely when planning, and so of course it means involving your leadership team, the people who are working if you're, if you were of CIO, let's say that it's your leadership Tam as it. Of course it's your peer group and the among the other chiefs and the organization, the CEO, ultimately the board of the organization as well, but I would say, remember Andre that that's competition today is less company to company and more ecosystem to ecosystem, and so what does that mean? It means ensuring that you got a great group of people outside of your organization, from whom you were also drawing in sight. It means L T, let's stick with this technology, your digital leader. It means other technology and digital leaders, peers of yours and organizations, maybe in your industry, but beyond it as well, hopefully as well, because some of the most interesting insights can happen in the translation of what you're hearing from a very different company back into your environment. It means engage in the venture capital community to a greater extent, to understand, where is smart money being spent, and why and how might the investments that I'm learning about from a few key venture, Capitalist Friends of mine? How might those impact me and frank my? How might I get in on those earlier than my...

...competition either investing in those companies or simply leveraging the products and services that they're they're, putting together at an early stage? It means, frankly, also engage in the executive recruiter field, and what do I mean by that? Not necessarily in the the most obvious way of finding my next job and therefore having a good cadrey of executive recruiters. Who can let me know when opportunities hat might be right for me, I don't mean it in that way. I mean leveraging this group who have the science behind what is working well across organizations. You know what Ar skills that are on the rise and have higher demand. What are some org changes that they are learning about as a result of the searches that they are doing? Why are I piercs failing where they are replacing somebody who has failed? What were the failures, and what might I learn from that as well? In addition, of course, to the successes, and so I think that's an important group as well, the last one, I would say, is again like the leniexes of the world having some key strategic partners who themselves have a wide array, F of clients that they serve and we're appropriate. Hopefully, they're not sharing any proprietary information client to client but but sort of genericizing and bubbling up some of the larger conclusions of what they're learning from across the landscape of their their clients. Learning from those people as well and pushing for conversations for that very learning, so you can draw further in sight as well. So I return to this notion of casting the net widely. Don't just think about your inner circle, still very important, critically important, of course, but expand that such that you are having the kinds of confet conversations that will have those really surprising insights for you, some new idea, new wrinkle new new feature for a product or a new product altogether. That can be contributed as a result of these vaster Raye of conversations at your regulary regularly taking place in yeah. That totally makes sense, Peter- and I think that's great advice to to think in those ecosystems. I think it's a very, very smart way of not being too optimizing the local optim Om Mer. So let's spend a few minutes on your new new book getting to NBULL. I guess there's the one of the other advice for moving ahead in there as Welt. So can you give us some some highlights on what you cover there happy to do. So. Thank you for asking so, but my book getting to Nimble is really the notion behind this is came from a conversation. The title came from a conversation that I had with the chief information officer chief technology officer of Carmax, a gentleman named Shimi, Mohammed and Shamim, and I were having an interview together and I concluded that interview, as I often do, with my interviewese of trends that excite them as they look to the future, and he is, I recall, mention machine learning and blockchain is a couple of topics that theyere going to invest in, but he actually made this point, which I thought was so poignant, be concluded by saying, and I'm paraphrasing here that ultimately, if I'm looking three years out, the thing that's going to be the trend that is most important to me. Maybe something we can't name today. That's how fast the pace of change is so I need to set up an organization that is nimble and what he meant by that, and certainly what I mean by that in terms of the theme of the book is setting up an organization that CON pivot, rapidly to seize Opportuniti, as it presents itself, will also staving off issues which will also, unfortunately, be presenting themselves much more rapidly in the present and future as well. And so it means ensuring that you have nimble practices across the suite of areas that I've already mentioned. People practices, processes, technology, ecosystems, as I just describe, and then strategy, and in each of those cases, rethinking those with more modern practices associated with it. So the stories that I tell in the book are of companies that were once great companies like Circuit City Circuit City was the the top performing stock. o F H S in the US as part of the SNDP five hundred and in th s actually birth, Car Maxs, the company I just mentioned they use the winfall of their their growth to create a variety of different companies and two thousand and one it was featured in Jim Collins, classic book good to Great, among just a small group of companies that that had gone from good performance to great performance and analyze. What they did to do that only eight years after that Andre the company was liquidated, and so this is not just a pretty good company. This was the best company for...

...a decade and, and it was a great company across multiple decades and now it ceases to exist, and there are more and more examples in your country and mine, and so many in between of once great companies that weren't able to didn't have the nimbleness to change and to recognize that today's strengths actually can become our weaknesses. In fact, if we do not change, and so it tells e stories of the circuit cities of the world, but it also tells the stories of the capital ones in Washington Post Cement, among many others who have redefine themselves and are thriving to new levels as a result of the change that they've enacted and then it provides sort of a guidebook for other organizations to emulate as to what they ought to be measuring to take a understanding of. Where do we stand today? What's our what's the as we begin this next phase of our journey? What is our starting point, but also provides metrics to monitor that progress and as well as a variety of themes, I mentioned the five major ones, but twenty seven subthemes to those five major themes to continue to monitor, to gauge whether or not the organization is making progress at the appropriate rates and reaching a level of maturity across all of them. That is, in fact, appropriate. Fantastic. I think that's really spot on as as a topic how to how to stay in this in this level of continuously actually innovate and reinvent your organization, and, as you said, there are a number of examples we cut which come to my head like who had thought you would ever have a different mobile phone than an nokiaphone right so and started Heein in Europe, and we all know the story. One of the things which I find fascinating asking you is, if you look at the CIOS, the the established companies they bring in technology companies, and there are many many out there. Also in the US, what advice do you actually give or would give to companies like also like us, Likelynix, to interact with established corporations with with CIOS? What are some of the advicers? You can tell to to best support and work together with them, especially there are many motivated people. I can at least tell at Folynix who are like high energy fresh from fresh from high school from from from Lik universities and and engaged, but and then they want to interact with those corporations and they have different speed. So what is what is your recommendation when it can really work out with yes liht in many ways? It's the flip side of what I was escribing is part of my ecosystem answer, Andre. What I would say is an organization like yours who has many worldleading clients. The extent to which you can bring the world to each client is a very powerful thing that you you all can do and what I mean by that is, you know, take time from time to time, and forgive me Andre some of what I'm mentioning, I'm sure are perhaps some of the practices you've incorporated. But what I would say is from time to time reflect upon what are we learning across the the organization and the many clients that we have? Who are really the best of the best that we can draw some insights from again always being very mindful of of not sharing things that are proprietary to those relationships. But what do we see is really the APLUS performers, but like many of the people that I'm describing in that I featured in my book, and how do I bring some of the insights from them to each of our clients? And, frankly, I think in some ways best if it's outside, of the traditional kinds of conversations that you're having and that some of these conversations do not lead overtly to a sale of an additional sale of a product of yours. But rather look we work with a lot of great companies. Let's take an hour and I'd love to just share with you. Some of what we're seeing is best practices, fesh practies, related to how you and I are interacting, but but even beyond that, because we have the great advantage of working with so many great customers, and we want to make sure that some of those learnings are made available to you. I think that the pathway to being a trusted advisor, which we all in the various ways in which were interacting with our clients, wish to be, is to try to maximize the number of times where we're having conversations that are not transactional but are, in fact, coming almost with a gift of information, a gift of insight, a gift of a best...

...practice or two or three, and without any overts request. At the end of the conversation of something in return, then mere often we're doing that the more magnetic our presence is the more the higher the yield will be for invitations for those very kinds of conversations- and frankly I mean we are business people, and so I don't want to be naive here. The outcome should be that magnetism should lead to additional business for us as well, but by by letting our clients know that look. We want to counsel you as an individual, in addition to being an individual inidividual, an executive within the context of the company you're, a part of and help you be successful. So let me tell you some of the things that we are seeing work. Well, that might be good insights for you to begin to, or practices for you to employ. Here are other people that we know beyond our company. Let me introduce you to some peers of yours and other clients of ours, because the journey you're about to embark on is akin to the journey that this other client of ours is a year into, and maybe maybe he or she will be able to provide you the areas where you should be sprinting faster because that's where successwill be well, also letting you know where the land mines are to avoid, and so the ways in which we can think about the ecosystem. We are bringing to each of the clients that we serve the more powerful those relationships will be yeah. Thank you. Peter D and IV truly appreciate that offer looking forward to that and connect even outside outside of our conversation here. so that's really fantastic. Maybe we can go on forever, so I have so many questions actually so and and tapping into your wealth of experience, maybe one last thing or as the learning from you having done so many podcasts. What were some of like the funny things or like the war story, is happening through through all of those podcast. You have like any necdotes. You can share here. Well, Gosh, I mean there's so many different ways in which I can answer that question Andre I mean I will certainly say that if I go back and listen to interview, one or two or three I'd probably be wincing at my my you know not how much of a novice I am in this format and how much I have grown. I must tell you. I've learned mightily from a lot of our listeners, something you do very well, which I didn't do so well in the early stage. Thankfully, was fairly early that I got this advice. I remember I was from a gentleman named Bart Boudro at the time was that the railway BNSF he was a listener of the podcast, and he said you know what something that's distracting that you are doing is, while in the middle of you R, the answers to the questions you've asked so the Answeris that your interview, you're, giving you have this tendency to say yes or M, or you know kind of make. It seem like look, I'm listening, which is a natural tendency if we're having a casual conversation over a coffee, your lunch, but the way he said it was, you know, basically pause, let the person answer and then interject yourself there's an understanding. There are two of you there, but it's distracting to the listener to constantly hear you, and that was really great advice. What wonderful constructive criticism that was that changed a very important way in which I think about the listening process and and and giving my guest my undivided attention, but without in you know, interjecting it all, and so there are variety of these little tricks. I've learned, along the way of being a good listener of preparation, certainly and making sure that I I can kind of think about the various ways in which I'd like to take this conversation and know a bit more about where my interview has been across his or her career d and maybe tap some different veins as a result of that. But yes, it's been a, I thankfully, I believe anyway, it we would be for the listeners to judge, but I believe I've grown in that process and the other Nice consequence of it is once you get to a certain volume once that body of work is big enough. That then the the INVI, the yield on invitations to join for conversation become a bit easier, which has really been wonderful as well and, as a result, we've been able to get some very big guests across hour across our time two heads of states, multiple best selling authors, the CEOS of a variety of organizations- probably you know, fifteen or so billionaires and then a whole. As you mentioned, a wealth of us is chief information officers at worldbeating organizations around the world as well. So it's been so interesting to learn from so many of...

...them in the various ways in which they have been sex, successful and l. You know- draw some of those learnings to sharpen mine eves as an adviser, totect executives, yeah. Thank you Peter, not only for this fueling fueling, the ecosystem wit with that knowledge and this insight, but also for being my guess today. I found it very, very interesting and inspiring conversation and can only recommend to listen into to the technivation podcast and having a lot at the at the book getting to Nimbo. So thanks thanks about Peter, I can wait to connect even outside of this podcast formit and when we're getting out at the other end of this pandemic, o all the best for you ANDRO. Thank you so much. What a great pleasure this conversation was. Thank you for your thoughtful questions and likewise I'm looking forward to spending time when it's save for us to do so in the same city, and that certainly is something for us to look forward to together. Thank you. Peute you've been listening to Unli Sheit to ensure that you never miss an episode subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player. If you'd like to learn more about enterprise architecture and tools to help unleas, your business's digital capabilities visit lean ix dotmat. Thank you so much for listening until next time.

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